Tom Terry: It's very nice to see you John and kind of you to give of your time, tell me a little of your background.

John Barrie: I was born in Wisbech. I had one sister and my father kept a newsagents shop at the time, later on we went into the hotel business. No-one in the family was particularly interested in any sports and I think that if you had told them that I would become a professional billiards and snooker player they just wouldn't have believed it.

How did you get started in billiards then?

I started on a bagatelle table. We had a bagatelle table in the cellar and I used to go and play on it. I would be eight or nine I suppose. We got a small table later, about a half size, perhaps they would call it a three-quarter size now. I played on that. When I was about twelve my father took me to a club that he used to go to and I had my very first game on a full size table. There it was, this enormous table. I couldn't reach properly but oddly enough I found it easier to play on than our small table at home. I think it was because the pockets were bigger and I could get the balls in easier.

How did you learn the game. Did you have any lessons?

No, I didn't have lessons, but I learned a lot from a chap called Charley Simpson. He was a very good player and I learned from him. In 1937, I think it was, I saw Joe Davis and Horace Lindrum in Wisbech. They played billiards and snooker, it was an exhibition match, you know, they used to play an hour of billiards and three frames of snooker, then they would do their trick shots.

The first mention I can find of you in the record books is when you won the boy's championship in 1940. Was that at Burroughes and Watts?

No. It was taken down to Brighton because of the bombing in London. It was at the Royal Pavilion at Brighton. It was a rather lovely place. It was staged there. Jack Rainbow from Burroughes and Watts, he took it down there.

The next mention of you that I dropped across was that in 1948 you had made a 790 break. That was a few years after the boys of course, and in the meantime you had won the UK Championship. But talking of breaks, when did you make your first century?

My first century was when I was fourteen. It was a devastating experience I remember.

To get to a hundred.

Yes, to get to a hundred. You get to eighty five, and then ninety, struggling on a bit, a bit nervous, you think, my God what's going to come, and eventually you make the hundred. Strangely enough, when you've made it, the second one isn't anything like as hard.

At that time, were you mostly playing the red ball; all-round billiards?

Mostly all-round billiards, yes, catch-as-catch-can really. Just hoping to keep some kind of position going.

At what stage did you start to develop your game, your top-of-the-table play?

Well it was a year or two after that. It was after I met Charley Simpson, he did a great deal for me. He did a lot for my game. That was in 1942 when I was about seventeen. He took me to some exhibitions in Sheffield and he taught me a lot about the game. He showed me the top-of-the-table, and he told me about how the old fellows used to play, he brought me out into the game really. If it hadn't have been for Charley, I wouldn't have done very much in the game at all, well I don't think I would.

I've heard of Charles Simpson and I've read bits about him in the old magazines.

Very good player, Yorkshire professional champion.

At what stage then did yon decide to try your luck as a professional player?

Well, I began to feel that I was going in that direction. It was about that time that I met Joe Davis, he became a great friend of mine and he did a great deal for me. He suggested that it would be better if I changed my name because there were too many Smiths in the game. This wasn't universally felt to be all that good an idea. Smith is a good billiards name after all and I would be trading on the name, but I felt in my own way that perhaps something different. A new name. Something rather fresh.

Did you change your name officially.

No, no, this was, you might call it a stage name.

Why Barrie?

Well, only because William Barry Smith was my real name. Bill Barrie didn't seem quite right, and I thought that John Barrie seemed to fit the bill, it seemed to come off the tongue OK.

I suppose that when you turned professional you had in mind mainly snooker, but we are more interested in your billiards career. What sort of level had you reached by that time?

Well, I hadn't made a thousand break and strangely enough I didn't make one until about twenty years later when I started to play again after a period when I had packed the game up altogether. I packed up when I was about thirty and I made my first thousand break when I was, I think, forty-six, I made a 1,482 on my table at home in Wisbech. The biggest break I've ever made.

It's sure a big break.

Yes. Since then I've made one or two thousand breaks, several eight and nine hundreds, but I had to pack it up. Billiards was in the doldrums, snooker was as well to some extent. I had to make a living so I packed up and came back to the hotel business.

Your first big match must have been the one with McConachy in 1951. You lost but you averaged nearly 45 which was pretty good, but he averaged 60, what can you tell me about that match?

One thing that I remember about that match was that I was having trouble, again, with my style. I've always had quite a bit of trouble with my style. I hadn't quite got the confidence that I had when I won the championship. I seemed to have lost a bit of venom for playing the game, somehow, a bit of the interest had gone.

From about that time, you don't seem to have played seriously again until about 1968. But, of course, before all that, in 1946 you had won the UK, beating Willie Leigh, You just lost to Sydney Smith, and you won again in 1950. The losing margin to Sydney Smith was about 600 which is not a lot in that class of billiards.

Sid Smith was an extremely good player. In those days billiards was still watched to some extent when it was played attractively and he was an extremely good player. But he used to have trouble with his style.

Yes, I've read that he was forever chopping and changing with his cueing and general technique,

Yes, he did. I did. You see, I had a very pronounced what you might call round arm style, back round here you know, it was so bad sometimes that people used to say, I don't know how the man plays at all. Something had gone wrong about the time I played Mac.

Do you think it might have had something to do with you starting so young, and perhaps not been able to reach properly? A lot of very young players seem to have their cueing arm round the back of their neck somewhere. Even Lindrum was a bit like that.

It could be, maybe, it tends to happen to some players, certainly. I'm quite tall and that didn't help though I can't say that I ever found that such a difficulty as some other players. I also felt that I was a bit handicapped by the shape of my body, I couldn't sort of stand straight up, I, you know, I had to come round a bit, and I quite often felt uncomfortable. But I could play, and I could practice, I spent hours knocking the ball up and down the table because I realised I had difficulties with my cueing. I spent hours, I worked terribly hard at the game, I put in hours and hours of practice and study at the game. I practised with one ball, cueing, cueing, touch. This all went to model a style, and I was able to play.

Well you must have got it about right because you made a lot of centuries at snooker where cueing is everything. And you did have those wins. You beat Kennerley, I saw Kennerley and he was a good player, you beat him by nearly 4000, that was in 1950. After that, as I remarked, you didn't seem to play seriously again for quite a long time. In 79 you lost to Williams, then you lost a couple of times to Karnehm, but they were very close games, very close. In 1980, in the world, I was interested to notice that you played Steve Davis. You beat him, averaged 53 and had a 335 break.

Yes I remember. Steve was a good billiards player, of course he never concentrated on billiards, but he liked playing it and I always think that Steve had a great admiration for billiards. He realised what it could do to help you with your knowledge. I think he had a leaning towards it but of course there was no money in it at all. Look what he did at snooker!

I have heard that he might be interested in taking billiards up again but I don't know whether there is any truth in that. You must have had a very remarkable match with Fred Davis because you lost to Fred by a hundred - 2253 to 2153 - so that must have been quite a finish.

I beat him in the semi-final of the, UK Championship.

This was the world.

Yes. Yes, that's right. The final.

Yes. He beat you by a hundred, by only a hundred.

Yes. And I think I was about 700 behind at one stage.

The averages were not great but, still, averages in the thirties is not too bad in modern billiards.

We were scratching around a bit I do remember. I played Fred a few times. I remember playing him after I had won the UK, at Leicester Square Hall, we played a week's match, I managed to win, it was an exhibition match, you know, Ted Lowe was the manager in those days and he put it on. It was a good match, I enjoyed it a great deal, and Fred enjoyed it because it was the first time he had played a billiards match for years. I seemed to play pretty well though I was edgy to start with, we hadn't played many matches in those days. Here I was, UK champion, more or less defending my title, unofficially of course, and against Fred.

You went to New Zealand to play in an Open Tournament.

Yes.

That tournament was won by Ferreira. You had some big breaks there. You had a 687 unfinished against Nolan, a 639 against Mark Wildman in the round-robin stages, and then he beat you in the semi-final. He had a terrific game to beat you in the semi-final. I should imagine that you would possibly have been expecting to beat him.

Yes I did expect to beat him, but I had a pretty bad day that day and Mark played wonderfully well.

As you were his tutor, perhaps it inspired him to play better than expected.

Yes, maybe, but Mark was a pretty good player, he was a hell of a player really, considering that he never really worked at, never he never really apprenticed himself to it, because you know, he had jobs to do, he had to earn a living, and he played a lot of snooker, he perhaps only played when he wanted to, but he made some useful breaks, some very useful breaks indeed.

In New Zealand you had several two hundreds and two breaks well into the four hundreds. You must have been playing well. Ferreira seemed to carry all before him though. Incidentally, when I went to see Mark, he reminisced of how he had some lessons from you when he was a boy.

Yes, when he was about fourteen.

And he said that he always thought that that stood him in very good stead.

I taught quite a lot of people actually, gave then advice you know. I liked doing that.

What other well known players did you instruct.

Ian Williamson I gave quite a few lessons to. He seemed to benefit a great deal but he was a very laboured sort of player, he played very slowly. I could never get him to quicken up.

Yes, he is a slow player, a good player but very slow.

It's a pity that because people like to see quick play, just the same game of course, but when it's played reasonably quickly it's so much more attractive to watch. You have to get some method going and let it flow.

A similar player is a man you perhaps haven't seen, though he can be much quicker than Ian when he wants to be, and that is Robby Foldvari.

He won the championship, didn't he?

Yes, he won the world in, I think it was 1986. He beat Norman Dagley in the final.

Play snooker too, doesn't he?

Oh yes, he's had a maximum at snooker. Albert Salisbury,

"Snowy."

Yes, Snowy. He always says that he thought he knew something about the game until he played with you and then he realised he knew almost nothing. He's a great fan of yours. Have you seen many of the present day players?

I know some of the older players, I don't know any of the younger players very much. But I do know that they are terrific potters. Tremendous potters. They seem to have a third eye for potting you know, down on the table and it's straight in. And they tell me that in practice they hardly miss at all. It's amazing, but then you see the evolution of the game is such that people come up and they pot balls. They're trained, and they pot balls. The technique has developed and so they are going to improve all the time.

Mike Russell, Peter Gilchrist - who won the World Championship, Roxton, Roxton Chapman, they're all marvellous potters. Some people say that they rely on their potting too much, but generally they never miss, or that's the way it seems.

Quite. One thing I do think they lack a little bit is perhaps the artistry of billiards. There are so many different shots at the game, so many different techniques. Touch and angles. The touch has to be developed. You don't get the same kind of thing at snooker. I think myself that the cueing at billiards can be so helpful at snooker. Potting or whatever. There's something in billiards which can give you great knowledge at snooker. I think that it remains the same today as it ever did. A lot of snooker players wouldn't agree. They say it's all potting today. I still think that the touch, the angles, the way you navigate the balls can come about from billiards and has to be of great help in the game of snooker.

I think you are right. But you could argue, of course, that a chap, say like Stephen Hendry, has never played billiards in his life.

I've wondered about that. I think he's a one-off. There's no doubt about it. People do become great snooker players without playing billiards, it happens, I wouldn't think there are many snooker players today that do play billiards, but I still think that a good grounding at billiards is a help, and I'm sure Steve (Davis) realises that.

You're saying in effect that some of these very fine players would be even better if they had had some billiards training?

Well, yes.

Well, if that is so, it's frightening. I wonder just how good they can get?

Billiards nurtures a certain kind of touch. You know you can always tell when you see someone playing snooker whether he's played billiards or not.

You made plenty of centuries at snooker. Did you change your action at all when you were playing snooker?

No, not at all. There is a different technique for playing snooker, obviously, but your style doesn't change.

Did you ever play Joe Davis at billiards?

Strangely enough I never played Joe Davis at billiards. In 1946, I think it was 1946, perhaps it was '47, the UK billiards championship was held again and he actually held the title. I played Willie in the semi final, how old would I be then, about twenty-two, and I was to play Joe in the final. But he wouldn't have it and I greatly regret it. I would have loved to have played him, it would have been marvellous for me at that particular time.

I remember you played Willie Smith.

Yes, Willie was a great player, I mean, when I played Willie in the semi-final in 1950 I was amazed at how he still managed to make three and four hundred breaks. And he was 62, and I was 26, but he made some extraordinary shots and breaks, it really amazed me how well he played, and considering that he hadn't played any matches for ages and ages. I don't think he'd played very much at all for quite a long time.

What about the other players of that time?

There weren't too many of them. At that time the game was really still very much out in the cold. Not a lot of people watched it, I think there are more people watching nowadays than there were then. But I played Fred Davis. Fred was a good player, in fact a hell of a good player. Rex Williams was an extremely efficient player, but of course he had to devote most of his career to snooker. Jack Karnehm, was a good player, I played Karnehm. For some reason, I don't know what it is but I never seemed to play particularly well against Jack. He beat me on two occasions, good matches, but somehow I didn't seem to settle down to it.

Tell me. One thing people will be very interested in. Could you tell me how you developed your game, your skill at the spot end, your close play.

Well, first of all you have to get an idea of how to play it, some sort of an idea of what you are trying to do. You have to have some kind of method going. You have to have a method. Sometimes I played the postman's knock, but mostly I used to play the floating white. It takes hours of practice. When you think that there's really only half-a-dozen shots involved, and yet it takes hours and hours of practise to be able to make a big break. It seems rather ridiculous when it's only repetition. You have to get your concentration developed to the point where you hardly ever make a mistake. It's also necessary to alternate certain shots, it's necessary to get away from time to time, but I practised the sequences for hour after hour, for such a long time, and I was so enthusiastic. Cue ball positioning. Potting, soft potting with a bit of screw or stun, all that kind of thing.

Did you develop the nurseries to any extent?

Yes, but I wasn't so keen on those because they can be a bit monotonous. I tried to get my top-of-the-table game in such a way as I was moving the balls around, improvising a little bit so as to make it interesting to watch. I would vary it a bit. Perhaps sixty points with the nurseries, I might invite the spectators to ask if they wanted me to carry on or break them up, you see, usually they said yes because they didn't want to say no. But usually I would break them and vary the game, It's nice to be able to vary your method of play, it's more entertaining to anybody watching and it keeps you alert. It's more enjoyable, it is possible to bore yourself.

Yes. Jack Karnehm goes on about that aspect of the game and tells how Tom Newman would vary the game just to keep himself interested.

Yes, of course.

Well Mr. Barrie. There are still plenty of players who enjoy billiards. What would you say to the club player, you know, the thirty - forty break player, what tips would you give him to improve his game.

First. Make certain, make certain that when you address the ball, make certain that you strike it in exactly the same spot that you address it.

I've heard that before!

That would be about the first thing. In order to do that thing that sounds so easy it takes a lot of work. If you can do that consistently your game will improve. This is all in relation to cueing, you must always strike the ball where you address it. Constant, constant, constant practise. And enjoy it. Enjoy it. Tire yourself out enjoying it. And then pack it up! Have a rest and start again. I loved practising, they couldn't get me away from the table. Every minute of it.

Do you ever play these days?

No, because I have a physical condition which I've had surgery for which has prevented me from bending. I have a false, an artificial diaphragm. I had a large operation for a diaphragmatic hernia. Unfortunately it didn't heal too well so I had to have it done again, and then again. I had the same bloody operation done three times.

Recently?

No. It was just before I packed the game up completely, between 1976 and 1980.

And you've hardly played since then? I'm sure you would have liked to have played.

Occasionally I give people tips, that sort of thing, but I can't bend down and show them.

I think that is very sad that with your great love of the game you are unable to play. Would you have carried on?

Oh yes, I would have played, I would be playing now. Never mind. It's nice to be able to watch the many fine young players that there are around today, and I'm hoping to see more of the young billiard players. Perhaps I'll see you around Tom.

I certainly hope so. Thank you very much John Barrie.