BQR: It's very kind of you Rex to give me of your time. Tell me something about your family background, were there any sporting connections?

Rex Williams: Not really. My father wasn't particularly interested in billiards until I started to play. He was very keen on athletics. He was a member of Birchfield Harriers for quite a few years and he used to take me to athletic meetings. Another of his interests was crown green bowling. I enjoyed bowling and I once represented the County.

How did you get started in Billiards?

It came about by accident, like a lot of things in life. We had a family printing business and my father put a table in the works for the men to play on during their lunch breaks. I just started to play knocking the balls about. One day, my uncle, I think it was, asked my father if he had seen me playing. He said that he thought if I had some lessons I could be a good player. That's how I got started.

And you had some lessons?

Well yes. My father got a chap called Alf Perks to play with me. He was a very good red-ball player. He spent a lot of time with me. He almost became like a second father to me. and he taught me the red ball - and the all-round game.

You must have made quite rapid progress because you were soon doing very well in national tournaments. You won the British boys billiards in 1948 and 1949, and followed with the British junior championship in 1950 and 1951 - not to mention the snooker titles.

Yes. I got on pretty quickly. I made my first hundred after only three months playing. I became very keen indeed. I used to love to watch Frank Edwards play. (Frank Edwards was five times English Amateur Champion) Whenever he was playing anywhere near I used to pester my father to take me to watch him but you know, I think that in most things you've got to have some natural aptitude and, perhaps I was lucky, but I seemed to have some talent for the game. I made a 500 break when I was sixteen and I had a big break against Herbert Beetham.

Yes. But it was Beetham who put you out of the Amateur Championship, the same year that you won the Amateur Snooker.

Yes I did lose to Herbert but I just forget which year. I played in it twice and lost once to Driffield and once to Beetham but I forget which year it was.

What sort of game did you play at that time. Was it mostly red-ball and all-round?

Yes I think it was at first. But I found top-of-the-table was not too difficult for me. I learned something from Frank Edwards and I studied the game a lot. I think I can say that from about 16 onwards I was mainly a top-of-the-table player.

I see. Going back to Beetham, I think you'll find Rex, that he beat you the year you won the Snooker - the year you turned professional.

I see. I won the Midlands Championship, I beat Herbert in that one.

Yes. And you made a break of 520 against him. What was your motivation for turning professional at that time?

It came about through Fred Davies really. I hadn't really thought very much of turning pro, but Fred (Davis) wrote a newspaper article, he said that if I was ever going to turn pro then now was the time to do it. I really wanted to win the amateur billiards championship, that's what I had set my heart on. I though about it quite a lot and decided that if I waited it might be too late.

That meant of course that you had to concentrate on snooker. Wasn't it about that time that you began an association with Joe Davis?

Yes. I spent two weeks at his house in London. It was very interesting. He concentrated on cueing, technique, that sort of thing. I think I got a lot out of it, I think it stood me in good stead. But there was one thing about Joe that wasn't quite right I think, he thought that everyone should play snooker like he did. He didn't seem to consider that some people are taller than others. Things like that. I think that everybody's different and you have to work out what suits you. But he was a great player, he was a genius.

I have heard it said that if you want to know how Joe Davis stood and cued then watch Rex Williams.

Well I don't know about that, I'm a bit taller than Joe was.

Did you ever play him at billiards?

Only once, though I saw him play. The chap I was telling you about, Alf Perks, well Joe was giving an exhibition at his club and they asked me to play him at billiards. I couldn't get there quick enough. To play the great man you know. It was the usual thing, half-an-hour or forty minutes billiards and then snooker, and I was to play him at billiards. Well, he soon got going and made a break of about 600 odd and I only got about one shot. But he was a genius; top-of-the-table, red-ball, then he would run the nurseries, he could do anything. I noticed that when he went to hand he would pump the red up and down a few times, he wouldn't pot it straight away to get back to the top, he would play a few reds. I suppose it was to keep the game a bit open, to entertain the crowd. He was a genius. And yet he once said to me, talking about Walter Lindrum, "Rex," he said, "that chap could do anything he liked, he could give the rest of us 10,000 start in a fortnight and beat us any time he liked."

Amazing.

Yes, isn't it. That from a man who was himself a genius at the game. He used to play Willie Smith once a year and he made a big break.

Yes. I looked that up. He made an 829. He also had three centuries in three frames against Smith.

I used to play Willie Smith. He was a great player.

Did you really. So you used to play a bit with Willie Smith.

Yes. He was in his seventies but he could still make two and three hundred breaks. I don't think I've ever seen anyone who could get so much side on the ball as him. When he put side on it used to zip of the cushions. I learned a bit from him. He made 60 or so thousand breaks in one season. Just fancy that. Imagine the concentration.

Well Rex, with having to concentrate on snooker you went quite a few years with hardly any billiards at all.

Yes. It was the same with all of us. But I got a bit of billiards. In those days when you did an exhibition it always started with about half-an-hour of billiards though it gradually became all snooker.

It was in 1968 when billiards really started for you again. That was the year when you played McConachy for the world title. I believe it was entirely your idea to try to revive the championship?

No, that's not quite right. It came about from a conversation I'd had with Clive Everton. He said, look Rex, if you want to do something for billiards why don't you challenge McConachy. It came about from that. I went to New Zealand to play him. There was no money in it. I got 200 New Zealand dollars for the game. But I managed to get a bit of sponsorship from John Haig and I went on to Australia to play Eddie Charlton so it finished up not a bad trip.

You won the match by only 265 and your top break was 293.

I was very disappointed with that match. The table was so slow. It would only do about three lengths. You couldn't play a long in-off and bring the red round to the middle pockets. The cloth was a very coarse one. I thought that the conditions were very bad. There's no doubt the table had been set up to suit his nursery cannons, it wasn't fit for a championship match.

Did he get the nurseries going at all?

He was always trying to get them and he did score quite a lot of his points from the nurseries. He was 73 you know but he could still play, but I was disappointed with that game.

For all that it got the championship going again, and you held the title for 14 years.

Yes, but I didn't play 14 times. I think I played about eight times.

One of your best wins was over Jack Karnehm in 1973. You had one session average of 217, a match average of just over 50, and a highest break of 528, pretty good.

Yes, and the 500 break was not made in the session when I had that big average. I played pretty consistently in that one until the last day or two. John Pulman turned up and kept me out most of the night!

You lost to Fred Davis in 1980 and later the same year to Mark Wildman in the quarters when Fred won it again. But you did have another couple of wins and some big breaks. Though I haven't the details. My records finish in 1980. I don't seem to be able to get complete up-to-date records.

I suppose I should have kept records. All these things will be lost. I've thought of trying to produce a record book of billiards since the war but it would be a heck of a job.

Anyway, during the years you were champion you were also playing, of course, in the UK championships. You won it in 1979 with a win over John Barrie but the following year you lost to Jack Karnehm by just 95 points after making a break of 423.

Yes. That was at Jim Williamson's place in Leeds. I don't remember a lot about that game, but If I made a 423 then Jack must have played pretty well.

You got it back from him the following year when you won by about 500. Tell me, I've been hearing quite a bit about John Barrie recently. What was your opinion of him.

Well, Mark Wildman could tell you a lot more about Barrie than I can. I never saw Barrie play except for the two times I played him myself. But he was a very good player.

Did he play the nurseries?

Not against me. His game was similar to mine. He kept the balls very tight at the top as I did. You see there's not a lot of point breaking up a top-of-the-table position to try to play nurseries because of the limitation on cannons. I don't think it's worth the effort of trying to master them these days. Barrie and myself kept the balls close at the top. Fred played a more loose type of game at the top, but he could keep them there and score very heavily.

Well, we've mentioned John Barrie, who were the other great players of the time when you were at your billiards best.

As I've said. We had to concentrate on snooker and there wasn't a lot of billiards. I think there is something of a parallel between myself and John Barrie. He must be a disappointed man. He was a great player, but at his best when there was nothing to play in, hardly any billiards at all. A bit like me. I was at my peak at snooker just a bit too soon. When the game really took off I was in my forties.

Yes. I suppose you were going back a little bit.

Yes I was.

These days it almost seems that it can be all over for a snooker player when he gets to be about thirty!

Yes. But there were some great amateur players about. Frank Edwards used to come to my house for a game. Frank liked a game of snooker as well. And Leslie Driffield. He was always in Smith and Nelsons in Leeds and I used to chat to him. I always remained very friendly with them. Herbert Beetham used to come to my matches and he would always find me and have a chat. It's funny, billiard players always seem so different from snooker players, they seem to come more from a business background.

Not quite so much coke and crisps, eh. Perhaps that's not fair, the image has changed a lot. What are your views on some of the present day players.

Roxton (Chapman) is very good. He came here. He has a very good knowledge of top-of-the-table. I was able to show him one or two moves but he's very good. A lad who's made a thousand break at - how old is he?

Twenty

Twenty. Well, he's better than I was at that age.

Is he really?

Oh yes, bearing in mind of course that he has played only billiards, at that age I was playing hardly any billiards and concentrating just on snooker. I hadn't seen much of Russell until India. I was very impressed. He really knows the spot end game, pots well, good all-round, yes he's a great player. I just don't know what happened to him in the final.

Well Rex. I've watched Russell perhaps more than anybody - in competitive play - and I've never seen him quite as out of touch with himself and with his game as he was in that final.

Yes. But let's not take any credit away from Peter (Gilchrist) He struck the ball so beautifully and played with such confidence when he got going. He's very good and a delight to watch.

I've also watched Peter Gilchrist quite a lot. He sometimes seemed to get a bit careless and lose concentration, but not this time. Remember that he did win the British Open twice you know.

And Foldvari?

I found it very difficult to play against Robby. He's very good but he was very slow, and it's difficult to keep your concentration against somebody like that. Actually, my best chance was when I had a good position and got a diabolical kick. On a pot wasn't it?

No. I had a little cannon at the top. I got an enormous kick, it looked as if I had hit the ball on the wrong side altogether.

I remember now.

Yes. he made a century off that. If that had not happened I might have made one, and then there would have been nothing in it. Made a lot of difference that did. Having said that he's a good player. I just wish he would speed his game up a bit. I did make a mistake over that game. I didn't know that the table was available for practice. I could have had half-an-hour the night before but didn't. I should have done because it took me a bit of time to find the angle. The balls were throwing incredibly wide, unbelievably wide, and it took a bit of getting used to. I should have had that bit of practice.

But I think you enjoyed the championship - apart from losing of course.

I didn't mind too much. I felt that after I was out I could relax and enjoy the stay and I enjoyed it very much. It was great being amongst a gang of billiards people again and having a drink and a chat. And what a hotel!

I expect you will be there again next year. The future?

I hope to play there again next year. As regards the future A lot depends on whether the game can get on television. I tried to get it on Telly when I was chairman (Of the WPBSA) and I was told that as far as the television people were concerned billiards was just another game played on a snooker table. I pretty soon told them that, on the contrary, it was snooker that was another game played on a billiards table. We couldn't get any real coverage. I think that billiards has to be presented with another game and that has to be snooker. In the thirties snooker came up on the back of billiards, now it's the other way round and I think that billiards will have to come again on the back of snooker. I think the game must change a bit. I think that the tables and the cloths make the game too easy, I think we should go back to the conditions they used to play under. For example (And here Rex demonstrated on his own table which is very tight compared with most modern tables though not as tight, he claims, as tables were in the old days) look at this. I put a ball there (On the top cushion about 18 inches from the pocket) nowadays they just bang it in, it's too easy. It's not so easy on here, look (plays and misses) You've got to play the run-through (plays and scores) that's what they did in the old days, they wouldn't look at a pot like that, they ran through. It opened the game up, it gave some variety to the play, and I think we should get back to that.

The balls?

Well we can't do much about that, I think we're stuck with those.

Just to finish with then Rex. What advice would you give to the average dub player, you know, the forty/fifty break man, what tips would you give?

Well. Club players these days don't really have much knowledge of the game. Fifty years ago every club had some regular fifty break players, and usually a hundred break player, sometimes two. They haven't now. A player needs knowledge, he should watch good players when he can, and you know, you can learn quite a bit from books. As regards playing the game he should avoid trying to play top-of-the-table and should stick to the red ball. At billiards you must follow right through with the cue, the cue must go through the ball and the best way to get this is to play the in-offs. Follow right through the ball to develop the correct striking for billiards, and don't try the top-of-the-table until you can make hundred breaks just off the red, and then you can have a go if you want. Snooker's different. Snooker players stop on the ball, they don't really but it looks that way and their action is more of a hit and stop. Billiards, you must go right through the ball.

Stance. What about the modern square-on stance?

I don't think it's necessary. It seemed to start with Steve Davis. But it's all an individual thing. Joe Davis stood the way he stood and struck the ball beautifully. Steve Davis stands the way he stands and also strikes the ball beautifully. I don't think it matters too much, but neither do I think that the square-on stance is necessary. I think it's what suits you and if you are comfortable with it.

Well thanks very much Rex. We have been concentrating on chatting about billiards. That means of course that we have hardly touched on your outstanding career in snooker, nor have we spoken about your part in re-introducing the World Snooker Championship. I think there are many players and fans who are probably quite unaware that the revival of the Snooker Championship was virtually a single handed effort on your part. But all that is another story. Thanks very much for giving me of your time.

Not at all Tom. A pleasure. Hope we shall meet up in India again next year

Thank you Rex Williams.