I wanted to tape a conversation with Herbert Beetham as part of a project to tape conversations with as many famous billiard players as I could. Herbert invited me to his house for a chat and a game. I thought that we would have a bit of a knockabout before talking. Not a bit of it, that is not Herbert's way. We played a serious match and every visit was recorded. His playing conditions are excellent and, perhaps a little inspired, I made a century break, exactly one hundred. I had lost the white in the nineties but scrambled two or three shots from the red to reach three figures. Herbert couldn't have been more pleased if he had made the break himself and I could almost feel him willing me over the last few points. But this made no difference to the result of the game which he won averaging just over 17 to my 15. Afterwards he provided me with a very nice tea and we talked. The following is a condensed version of a three-quarter hour tape.
B.Q.R. First Herbert, let me thank you for the invitation for a game on your table, enjoyed it very much and now I hope we can have a chat. Tell me, what can you remember from your early days. Were there any sporting connections in your family?
H.B. Well, I was born in Derby. None of the family were involved in very much sport though my father was interested in billiards. He used to go about with me in his later years and was quite interested in seeing me play. He saw me win the Midlands Championship. I won that 5 times Then I didn't play in it again. He came with me to London to see me in the 1936 final when I lost by 30.
Do you remember anything much about the First War?
Not much, I was only nine when it finished, but I do remember the Zeppelins when they came over Derby.
Over Derby!
Yes, they came over Derby. My brother was called up into the R.A.F, but he was only in for a short time before the Armistice. He died in 1978.
When did you first start playing billiards?
I didn't play properly until I was nineteen. My father had a small table at home and I used to play on that but I didn't play on a full-sized table until I was nineteen when I joined the St. Thomas's Church Institute in Normanton. That's a Community Centre now. At that time there were, I think, seven billiards league and they started a snooker league that year, now of course it's just the opposite - one billiards league and seven or eight at snooker.
Nineteen is a bit old to start the game and become a good player, a really good player. Did you have any tuition?
The best player at St Thomas's was a chap called Fred Minskip and I always used to take every opportunity of playing with him and learning from him. I've always done that, I've always tried to play with better players, I think you can improve that way.
Do you remember your first competitive games, your first championships?
Yes. I entered the Derby Institutes championship the first year I started playing and was runner up to Frank Monk,
Let's see, I'd be twenty then. I won it the next year. I won it a lot of times. I beat the record and then I didn't play in it again, I stopped, I bought them a trophy. Still played for.
When did you think you were good enough to have a go in the English Amateur.
I first entered in '32/33
Who were the leading players of that time?
I think that Coles, Horace Coles won it that year, Coles and Sydney Lee, they were the top players at the time (In fact Coles won in 1929. Lee won from '31 - '34.)
How far did you get first time?
I lost in the Area Final, I lost to Frank Edwards. I played a fellow called Stockdale, I made a big break against him, 253 I believe, that was at the Lounge in Nottingham, Willie Leigh had that place, but I lost to Edwards in the area final. Next year '33/34 I qualified but lost to Reg Wright, I think Edwards beat him. The year after that I beat Reg and Frank, qualified, and got to the final. I lost by 30 points to Joe Thompson.
Yes, the story goes that in the very last minutes of the game you missed a long in-off. You had hardly missed one throughout the whole championship but missed that one and so lost by 30.
Yes, that's quite correct.
It took a long time after that Herbert for you to get anywhere near again.
Yes, the war came, and after the war I was runner-up, runner-up in 1946.
Mendel Showman, what kind of a player was he?
Well, in the final he played a lot of safety. He was quite content to get a 30 or 40 break and then close the game up with a double baulk or a safety shot. I thought I ought to have beaten him, but that was his way, he took no risks, if there was any doubt he wouldn't try to score.
Actually you lost by quite a lot, by just over 500.
Yes, quite a lot. Do you know he only made one century in that final. It was his last visit and he made a 200.
You couldn't have been on your best form. You couldn't have been making big enough breaks.
No, I wasn't at my best, but it was his safety play that won him the game. A bit like Melbourne Inman.
You don't appear in the records again until 1952 when you were runner up to Driffield. You only lost by about 100, that must have been a good match.
Yes it was a good game. We were making quite a lot of 200s at the time, it was a good game.
Driffield again in '59, you were quite heavily beaten in that one, nearly 1200.
Yes, d'you know, I never beat Leslie in the Championship. I beat him in some other games but I could never beat him in the Championship. It's strange really, Reg Wright nearly always beat Leslie and I always beat Reg, strange really.
When you won in '60 and '61 you beat Reg Wright both times and in one of the games had a 399 - remember?
Yes, that was '61. In '60 I got to the final and the other semi final was Wright and Driffield. Well, I read in the paper that Driffield was 350 up, however the following day the Derby Evening Telegraph rang to say that Wright was 24 in front after the afternoon session. Maud (Herbert's wife ) telephoned Soho square at night and got the result and Reg had won by about 300. That gave me my chance because I always beat Reg, always, other games, exhibitions, always beat Reg, I expected to win and I did. It was not a brilliant final but we scored well (3426 -2289 ). The '61 final was the best I ever had. I averaged over 39 and had a 399 break.
They only played on one table at Burroughes and Watts. The championship must have taken some time.
Yes. About three weeks I think. The semis were over 8 hours and the final was a three day match, 12 hours.
Someone once told me that Reg Wright always travelled on the day and came home at night.
Well I did in the early rounds. Of course if I got to the semi or final then I stayed overnight.
Then I saw that you were runner-up again in '62, Driffield, but won again in '63 when you beat Norman - and beat him comfortably (4052 - 2759 ). In the meantime of course you had won the World Championship. Can you tell me something about that?
Yes, after the 1960 final the chairman of the B.A.& C.C. invited me to represent England in the forthcoming World Championship to be held in Edinburgh. I was pleased to accept and we decided to make it our summer holiday. I was third favourite behind Wilson Jones of India who had been playing very well, and Jim Long, Australia, who had beaten Tom Cleary, the 1954 World Champion, in the Australian final. On the morning of the opening day all the players were received by Deputy Lord Provost of Edinburgh.
I was drawn for the first game with Manuel Francisco of South Africa aged 25.1 had been told that he was playing badly. In the early stages he couldn't get going and I built up a substantial lead, Manuel seemed unable to make any headway but he gave me a shock in the late stages of the session when he shut me out and made some good breaks, but as I had built up a good lead I remained ahead. In the second session I did not play well and I was being overtaken, I had taken him too easily and was not keyed up. With a half-hour to go I was only a mere 60 or so in front but I made a big effort and recovered to win 1179 -869. My next game was with Jim Long. Everything went my way and with three successive centuries I went 500 in front. In the second session I continued to play well but Jim was also in good form and half-way through the session he made a wonderful break of 353 which reduced my lead considerably. If Jim had made another break immediately we would have been about level but my turn came and with some consistent play I won 1364 - 1013. Next I met Andrew Ramage, the balls ran badly for him, I was on top form and so had a very easy victory. At this stage of the championship Wilson Jones and myself were unbeaten. Wilson had won all of his games easily and had made breaks of 346 and 330.We met on the Saturday. There was a big crowd and the atmosphere was tense. We started carefully. Wilson played very safe with the result that I had only 48 points after 17 visits while Wilson had made 356. The second part of the session went well for me and in my last four visits I scored 536 points including a break of 277 which was my highest of the tournament to lead by 138 points. In the second session Wilson made 108 at his first visit to put us about level and then with a 181 he lead by 116 with about 45 minutes to play. I struggled hard and with a 145 and some smaller items managed to secure the lead. With about twenty minutes to go there was a bout of safety play, I managed to get in and made a 182 and I held on to win 1291 - 1053. It had been an exciting struggle all the way through, the lead changed hands many times and I enjoyed it very much. Wilson took his defeat like the great sportsman he is and said some nice things about me which I appreciated very much.
On the Sunday all the players and officials went on a coach tour of the highlands. The hospitality was overwhelming, we were all invited to many functions and there was never a dull moment. But the following morning I was upset as I discovered that my car had been stolen from outside the hotel. This did not affect my play against Walter Ramage as I had my best game and won comfortably. The police recovered my car, it had not been damaged but some items had been stolen. I had now two games to play, Wilf Asciak of Malta, and Bill Dennison of Northern Ireland. I beat Wilf easily enough although the papers said that Beetham had faltered. It then remained for me to beat Bill to win the championship. I thought that I would win easily but Bill -who had beaten me twice in practice games - played his very best and was 76 in front at the end of the first session.I could not get going and Bill was still about a hundred in front with an hour to go. But then a change came over the game, with a 184 I took the lead, and with successive breaks of 103, 93, and 100 unfinished I won by 1717 -845 to make sure of the championship. There was just one game left, Wilson Jones and Jim Long. Wilson seemed subdued and had only one brilliant spell and Jim Long won to be runner-up. Wilson had had 589 which took the prize for the highest break. After the matches we were taken to the Scottish Liberal Club where my trophy was filled with champagne.
Well that's great Herbert. What would have happened if you had lost to Dennison?
There would have been a three-way tie as Wilson and Jim Long had both lost one game.
You didn't lose one.
No, I was unbeaten.
Well, That was really wonderful. You defended your title in Perth but didn't do quite so well there.
No, I finished fourth I think, yes, Marshall won after a play off with Wilson with Cleary third, and I was fourth.
Your next really good performance was in '77 when you were runner-up in the Championship to Bob Close, but that year you had beaten Norman Dagley.
Yes, I beat Norman at Nottingham, at the People's Hall I think. I had two 300 breaks against him. (This game was in fact played at the Western Social Club.)
Two 300 breaks eh! and you would have been 68 at the time. It was always a good performance if anyone beat Norman at that time but to have done it at the age of 68 was a really marvellous performance.
It was a very good game.
Where did you play Close?
Middlesbrough, at the Western Social Club.
That was his home ground wasn't it. Tell me, what's been your best since then?
I've been in the competition proper, let's see now, Widnes I think. I lost to - - he beat Ken Shirley as well, let's see, schoolteacher chap, Steve Crosland. He beat me and Shirley, played very well.
He must have done, I know he's a good player but I didn't think he'd beaten both you and Shirley, he must have played well.
Oh yes.
When you were at your best who were the players you respected most?
Well Leslie of course, Frank Edwards, and the Wrights.
And then came Norman.
Yes, I think he was the best amateur of them all.
Well we've all seen Norman in full flow, so you reckon him the best?
I think so, English anyway, Perhaps Bob Marshall was the best but there wasn't much in it, I think perhaps Norman. And Alf Nolan, he was a good player, and he's qualified again this year he beat ...
Bill Watson, but Watson reckons that Alf played very slowly towards the end of the game.
Yes, Ken Shirley told me. Did you ever see Nolan, Tom?
Yes, a time or two.
Do you know, well, he did some funny things at times, do you know, if he had a screw in-off on, one that he could reach quite easily, he would use the rest.
Really!
Yes, if the cueball was near the red, on the spot you know, he was left handed you know, if he was going to play a little screw in-off he would use the rest, very strange, use the rest.
Odd. But he was a good player, only one since the war to win both billiards and snooker.
Oh yes, a very good player.
Talking of snooker have you ever played very much, have you made any big breaks?
No, I've never played a lot. I've won one or two competitions, locally, nothing big. I've had one or two centuries in practice but in matches I think my best is about 70.
What about the balls these days, I know that some time ago you were somewhat against the Super-Crystalate.
Yes. I think you get more kicks than with the old balls, and a funny thing, I think these balls tend to repel whilst the old balls tended to attract one another. If you play a cannon and it's touch and go whether you'll get it or not, the old balls seemed to attract one another as if they wanted to be together, these new balls seem to repel each other.
Well Herbert I've never heard that before but I know that your opinion would carry a deal of respect. And what about the state of the game today?
Well I think the Mini-Prix tournaments are a very good thing, I wish that they had existed 40 years ago. It's been a wonderful thing for the game and for the young players, and they are very popular.
Talking of younger players?
Russell is a wonderful player, wonderful, I think he will make a thousand break, I wouldn't be surprised any time to hear he had made a thousand
If you were younger do you think that you might have turned professional if the professional set-up were as it is now?
I don't think so, I always regarded the game as a hobby, I played for the enjoyment.
What about the very greatest players, the Lindrums and Newmans.
I saw Lindrum, he made the biggest break I ever saw, I saw him in Leicester where he made a 2800 odd break, it was mostly nursery cannons. He was the best I ever saw, a wonderful player no doubt about it, he seemed to be able to control the balls just as he wished. I played Joe Davis many times, and Willie Smith and Clarke McConachy. When we were in Australia we went to New Zealand, we visited Auckland, we sailed you know, and I telephoned Clarke, and he came to the port and picked us up and took us to his home for tea and then took us back to the boat, it was very nice of him and I enjoyed that.
And you still practice?
Yes, I practice by myself, and I play here with Ken Shirley and Ken Hobbs. We give starts you know. Just at the moment Ken Shirley is giving me 225 in two hours and I'm giving Ken Hobbs 225. If one of us wins three games on the run we adjust the starts by 75. I think that's a good way of playing, it keeps both players on their toes. I'm going to go to the Beaconsfield (Herbert's Club) now for a game by myself and then Ken Shirley's coming over a bit later on for a couple of hours.
Well in that case I'd better get off. It's been wonderful talking to you Thank you very much. Cheerio then Herbert, see you at the next Mini-Prix.
Cheerio Tom, all the best.